Small spindle selection

[Swede]

After many, many months of research and work, I'm STILL at a loss for what I consider the "ultimate" small spindle for a DIY bench mill. Between a Sherline ER16 spindle (light but nice) and, say, a Setco ISO30 taper box spindle, there is a big gap which is begging to be filled. And my bench mill is right there in that gap.

What I am looking for is a spindle with the following characteristics:


Be capable of automatic tool change.
Taper - smaller than ISO30
700 - 1000 watt / .9 to 1.3 HP or so
Modest weight, no 200 pound chunks of iron
preferably capable of 3 phase / VFD use, or DC
~18K RPM, or more if possible
Quality bearings / low runout, no junk

Anyone have any thoughts? I've looked at Gilman, Setco, NSK, Finley, many others. All of these makers start with an ER16 sized cartridge spindle and leap right into ISO30 tapers.

My bench mill has 3 spindles available, a KAVO HF, a Sherline ER16 collet-nose, and an R8 mini-mill spindle head assembly. The Kavo is top quality but pretty specialized and I'm still puzzling about a means of consistent Z, given that the mills slide into the collet with no means of a positive stop. The Kavo uses proprietary collets which are essentially dremel collets on steroids.

The R8 mini-mill head is OK but the quality is lacking.

Thanks fellas

Swede


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[Evodyne]

Take a look at a little unit I picked up-the guy has a few more. Not new, might need some TLC. Motor is 125 V, 2.6 A, 330 W, 400 Hz, and the thingy is rated for 22,000 RPM. I plan to swap to fix the auto tool changer and add a little more beefy motor. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the tapers to tell you what these use.

Look at http://www.evodyne.net/albe_spindle.html.

Email me at lance@evodyne.net if you have any questions.

[wile_e]

Take a look at a little unit I picked up-the guy has a few more. Not new, might need some TLC. Motor is 125 V, 2.6 A, 330 W, 400 Hz, and the thingy is rated for 22,000 RPM. I plan to swap to fix the auto tool changer and add a little more beefy motor. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the tapers to tell you what these use.

Look at http://www.evodyne.net/albe_spindle.html.

Email me at lance@evodyne.net if you have any questions.

How much did you have to pay?
Where can I get one?

[Evodyne]

I have sent you a private message with the boring details.

[Swede]

Can you post the details here in the thread? If not, I'd like a PM too. Looks intriguing! What is the taper? Thanks.

Kurt

[wile_e]

I have sent you a private message with the boring details.

Thank you for the swift reply!

[JFettig]

Hey stevie, I am one step closer to ATC, although I dont plan on going there myself with this mill.
I am using my 3/4" fixed tooling from tormach.com, I got power drawbar plans and all the parts in the mail, I ordered a 4 way 3 position solenoid valve from ebay which I would be able to controll by software if I wanted, although I will only controll it by two small push buttons.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT
theres the solenoid valve
Here are the drawbar plans:
http://home.insightbb.com/~joevicar3...wbar_Plans.htm

All of this I will mount right above the drawbar, If you can find the correct bearings you could get it up and running that fast.

Jon

[Evodyne]

Hi Kurt! I ran across the spindle in an ebay auction. Auction number 3872188512. The fellows user name is jmusall. There is less than a day left, starting bid is $49.95+ $15.00 shipping in the U.S. Last I checked there were no bids.

I was suprised to find he is based out of the same town where I live. I called, then visited. He had a box with four or five of the units in it. One is the one being auctioned and I bought another. I didn't dicker, just offered $150 and he took it.

The units are not all in the same shape. Some catch when spun by hand, some exhibit runout, missing pneumatic cyclinders for the tool changers, busted pins in the electrical connectors, etc. He has no paperwork, nor any drives to test them with. So it's pretty much a crap shoot. But they can be rebuilt, right? I plan on added a slightly beefier motor to mine.

I was not able to find ANYTHING on these on the web. The company, Albe, was Swiss, but was taken over in '86 by Mikron. I'm looking for info-if you find any I'd appreciate it if you could pass it on.

I don't know enough about these things (newbie exposed) to tell you about the taper. What I can say is that the "big" end of the bore is less than 1/2" and more than 3/8". Sorry, I can't measure exactly till tomorrow. I'll bring it to work and break out a caliper and let you know.

By the way, this fellow has other, smaller Albe motorized spindles. No tool changers and set up for collets. Small-like for engraving. Up to 25,000 rpm some of them. Again, in various states of disrepair-none were virgins.

The fellow's name is John. I don't remember his last name. Off his card:

John's Industrial Surplus
2351 Industrial Ave.
Valparaiso, IN 46383
219-465-0128
219-531-1004 fax
email-see his ebay account

Mon-Fri 9:00AM-5:00PM (Mon & Wed 5:30 PM to 8:00PM as well)
Saturday noon to 6:00PM

Let me know if there is anything more I can do for you, O.K?

lance@evodyne.net
Evodyne Soft Systems

[RotarySMP]

Hi Swede,

What about that €400 german ER25 spindle?

[JFettig]

The problem with ER spindles is that you cannot make a quick change or auto tool changer, What he needs is something with fixed tooling of some sort.

Jon

[drk]

i have been using hf spindles with 60,000 and more rpm
I have 5 from Kavo(150watts) and 3 quiet drill 80,000 rpm 1 hp each. The quiet drill has 1/8" collet and supports ATC using a switch.
Both these have the same problem of complex collets and expensive bearings.
I have recently found a manufacturer of HF spindles who sells at real low prices( as compared to Kavo and precise), gives any standard collet you want , any type of spindle( hf/belt driven) runout is <.0005" and even the beltdriven are perfect.

[Evodyne]

Sweed,

Hello! I did manage to remember to bring the spindle to work-a big accomplishment in itself. All I have to measure with is a Starrett caliper. The large end of the spindle is between 0.510" and 0.511". Taper depth is about 1.3048" to 1.3050". Don't know what else I can add.

If these dimensions mean anything to anyone in terms of what the heck I actually have, I'd apprectiate some feedback.

Cheers!

[Swede]

Thanks Lance. I'm going to bid on this spindle, hopefully if there's a bid war we won't be hurting each other. I like the looks of this unit. Swiss tooling is rarely anything other than very nice stuff.

It looks to be an HF spindle, 400 Hz, 125V. That's bad news for my KaVo 4442 converter, which is a 40V unit, I do believe. At the current price, it's worth the gamble as far as being able to find or make tooling and an appropriate power supply. If the bearings are bad, again hopefully that's something that can be replaced.

Mark, I haven't yet looked at the German ER spindle beyond what's on the net. I'm being intimidated by the fact that I know no German, and there doesn't seem to be an ability to order online with a CC. Here's the link for those interested:

http://www.profimaschinen.de/spindel...eleinheit.html

If anyone can figure out how to order one of these, let me know, I'll try one and write a review. The block spindle especially looks nice, easy to mount. Combine this spindle with a Dayton 2M191 AC/DC motor at 1HP and high speed, I think it'd be sweet. Spindles are like potato chips, you can't stop with just one.

Fixed tooling is no longer as much of an issue as it was, now that I'm finally set up for tool length sensing!

Thanks to everyone for ressurecting this thread. The spindle is the heart of a small machine... even with the best motion hardware, if the spindle is lacking, performance just won't be there.

For anyone interested, I'm retrofitting my mill with a GORTITE bellows. I bought one of their 24" square bellows units from MSC, and am busy chopping it up and machining brackets to mount it properly. These are expensive but the quality is excellent, and they are perfect for small machines which use THK or NSK linear rails.

[Evodyne]

Ha! It seems sort of sadistic to point you to this then bid against you for it. I'll graciously bow out and give you a shot at a good deal. Time is running down and no one has bid-I'd guess everyone will snipe in the closing moments. It can be a gamble: set your max bid high enough to get what you want and hope Joe next door isn't doing the same. I've won every bid I've participated in-BUT I've paid out some bucks too on occasion.

I'm going to drive over to his place tomorrow and rumage around. I may pick up another of these or some of the smaller, colleted versions (I'm wanting to do an engraver type thingy).

Well, good luck! Now I'm curious and will have to check the auction to see who gets it.

B.t.w, I have a post open asking for info on these puppys. If you do run across any information, please be kind enough to forward it to me.

[Al_The_Man]

I'm going to bid on this spindle, hopefully if there's a bid war we won't be hurting each other. I like the looks of this unit. Swiss tooling is rarely anything other than very nice stuff.

It looks to be an HF spindle, 400 Hz, 125V.

Swede, How are you intending to run this at 400hz (I assume the spindle in question is 3ph). Is there any VFD's that you know of out there that are 120vac?
Al

[Evodyne]

Good question! Apparently yes, there are. The same gentleman offering the unit on eBay has another aution going:

Allen Bradley 1398-DDM-005X Variable Freq Drive here that is 0-400HZ 3 phase and operates off of 120 VAC single phase.

[Swede]

SCORE! I snagged it! But Evodyne, I apologize... I thought with the spindle you've already purchased, you wouldn't go for another. In my previous post, I was referring to anyone else from the zone who might be interested. Usually with auctions, unless it's a dutch auction, guys will keep it somewhat of a secret if they're going to bid on it. If I stepped on anyone's toes, please accept my apolgy.

This guy has another spindle, although it seems pretty lightweight at only 60 watts - 3872784320. It'd make a nice engraver spindle or maybe a micro-mill or PCB spindle. Nice, uniform mounting diameter.

Al, for power, I'm going to try my little Hitachi VFD. Right now it's on a crummy bench drill press. It'll do 360 Hz. I need to recheck the output voltage on the VFD. I know the VFD input is 120 V 1P. If, for some reason I cannot make the native 3P motor perform, it looks like the motor could be swapped with a bit of reworking. The housing looks like it contains either a small belt drive, or maybe a little gear head. I bet I can pop that motor off and replace it with perhaps an AC/DC universal motor at 12,000 RPM or so.

Evodyne, your excellent pictures on your web site reveals a pretty high quality unit, I think. I'm guessing the attachment on the removable cap is the pneumatic collet release, and the inlet on the body is probably for purge/overpressure air. Even if it's a basket case, it could form the basis of a really nice rebuild, with fresh bearings.

One potential drawback could be the tooling. If it uses some obscure taper, then that could be a real problem. If tooling is available, I'd guess that even a single tool holder will cost new more than the spindle itself. Worst case - regrind or rework for an ER collet and ignore the pneumatics.

If I find anything on this spindle, I'll pass it along. Thanks for the heads up, and again I apologize with the auction. I can't help myself when I see something that new was probably a few thousand $$ starting at $50!

[RotarySMP]

Swede,

I live in Vienna and speak German. I'll get you the details on ordering that ER-25 spindle. All germans in technical jobs speak english, so you should be fine once you have the contact.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/minitoolchanger/ quick change tooling for an ER taper. Because you can drill, bore and ream the tool hole and turn and tool post grind the taper in one chucking, run out should not be an issue. I am just making some Quick change tool holders for my Sherline ER-16 spindle.

[RotarySMP]

Here are the contact details:

Müller Mechanik
Jürgen Müller
Leo-Veth-Str. 31
D-96215 Lichtenfels / Mistelfeld
Tel (+49)09571/ 94 000-66
Fax (+49)09571/ 94 000-69
e-mail: info@profimaschinen.de

If you have any problems getting a reply in english, let me know and I'll translate your questions and his answers.

[JFettig]

Rotary, Im making some of my own tooling also, I have the tormach so I am making strait shank 3/4" tooling, What I did is start off with a 1.5" stock 1045, chuck it up, turn the shank and I ordered a mt3 collet to use to hold it on the other side for least runout possible
You could do similar with a ER chuck adapter, although you would need a hole all the way through to grab the blank.

I may also remind you that just driling and reaming is possible to still get you runout. It may help to run a boring bar through to clear out any of the runout before reaming.

Jon